Lotting issues: statements, concerns and questions

[greenwood]

I’ll start with things that I have fully accepted as what I’ve done wrong

1)   NM Bennu Item  AF3 +2 item. Infraction towards Carmisse. I offered THF assistance to Carmisse, Lonekent, Zumi and others with helping +2 drops. This was towards the end of the farming and I helped only with a single kill. I did not assist with farming items. I was unaware of the following  1) Carmisse was finishing her set  2) members that are coming towards the end to assist and have not helped farm should refrain from lotting items . Once I lotted Carmisse immediately zoned/logged off and I was told what I had done wrong. 

2)   NM Orthrus Item Atheling Mantle Infraction towards other LS members. Towards the end of a farming run with LS members we repeatedly killed the NM Orthrus for Othrus Claw. All additional items were categorized as FL. I won a lot for Tabby and I won a lot for Myric on separate kills. Carmisse pointed out that it was unfair for me to lot to get an item on two separate accounts before allowing all other LS members to get at least one mantle. Note: I say two separate accounts because the mantle can be sent within accounts allowing Greenwood and Tabby to share a single mantle, while not allowing a mantle to be sent back and forth from Myric.

3)   NM Itzpapalotl Item AF3 +2 Item Vision Stone. Infraction towards Carmissie and others? At the end of a abyssite/atma run with LS members we Killed Itzpapalotl and 3 Vision Stones dropped. I lotted on all three stones and passed all other items. Upon lotting these items I was being told by Izzy that I was lotting excessively and that I should not lot items for alternate characters and/or lot items for my alternate jobs. While trying to defend my actions I completed missed that Carmisse only needed 1 stone to complete her set of 6 stones. She stated this twice and I did not see it until after the alliance dispersed. My error was not seeing her message and not passing one of the stones to her.
If I got anything wrong please correct me. If I have missed anything in this talking points or there are additional points to add please do so (I’ve left of shadow harness because it does not pertain to this LS, but if anyone wishes to we can discuss how I messed up royally with that).

In regards to #1, I immediately apologized directly to Carmisse and the alliance included. There was no system of “locking items” that we used and it was not stated to me that the item was the last of a set. I was informed about this after.  In addition we also had not previously used a system of “only lot if you help farm NM items”. I was under the impression at the time that if I was in the party and helping the kill that I would be able to lot for available jobs, especially of my offer to come THF so that I could improve drop rates. At no time before or during the fight did I know or think I should be excluded from items.  After discussing in length with Lonekent and Zumi I am now in full understanding of what they would like when I offer to help a single kill. I was able also to speak with Carmisse to where I stated if she wanted me to pass on something she needs only to ask. I have done so on many kills before and after for her and others and I plan on doing so in the future.

In regards to #2, I lotted both for Greenwood/Tabby and Myric from the standpoint that we will be killing Orthrus more than a handful of times and the item in question has a 100% drop rate. I did not think there would be any harm in lotting and was not thinking of others first. I have since apologized and stated that going forward if I have one of an item (armor/weapon/etc.), either deliverable or non-deliverable, that I will confirm if others in the alliance have the item first before lotting a second time. Note: Atheling Mantle can and is used by all 3 of my characters (Myric NIN, Greenwood WAR and Tabby THF DRK)

In regards to #3, I’ve apologized to Carmisse although it seems that I offended Izzy. Upon being told of my excessive lots I was trying to get an understanding of what made them excessive rather than pay attention to passing the items. It was a heated discussion for me and I was being very shallow scoped at seeing other messages. I was first told I shouldn’t lot for alternate characters yet I do not play any characters as alternatives any more than others. I was also told I should not lot for jobs that are retired. I have no retired jobs. All jobs are 90 with exception to Ranger which is being leveled to 90 and is fully geared. Vision Stones are useful for Greenwood (WAR WHM BRD) and Tabby (THF RNG) which is why I lotted, considering the fact that eventually I’ll need 35 of them regardless which job I give it to first. I am not glazing over the fact that I unintentionally irreversibly made an error with seeing that Carmisse explicitly stated twice that she only needed a single stone to finish a set.  That is the only mistake I can see that I made.

I would have used my pop set to get Carmisse her item but due to the nature and tone of the discussion we were unable to do a second fight possible. I was first being scolded for lotting an item that some felt I wouldn’t use for a primary character following that I shouldn’t lot for retired jobs (although I have none).  I’ve noticed that this topic for some is annoying, tiresome, unneeded or otherwise pointless because we do not operate in the form of a HNMLS. However, should I announce a Primary, Secondary or Tertiary character or should I do the same for jobs? Are we giving some people priority over items? Are others lotting on items to build up their jobs that are used less often in Abyssea?

I’m prioritizing my characters and jobs equally. There are jobs that I use less frequently (DRK RNG RDM) but only because of lack of need in Abyssea.  This includes getting Abyssea clearance, Atma/Abyssite armor/weapons, and other missions/quests. However, I do not have identical jobs on multiple characters that I am lotting for.  An example of this is that Myric has a 64 WHM and Greenwood has a 90 WHM. After lotting items for GW’s WHM I’m not lotting items for Myric’s WHM unless everyone passes (balance stones, etc).  My jobs are splits between the following characters: --  Greenwood WHM BRD WAR  -- Tabby THF RNG RDM DRK -- Myric NIN. Is my lotting for these jobs any different than Areya lotting for PLD BLU BLM WHM SCH DRK SAM etc (because I can’t remember his jobs).

I am not a stranger to having people lot over me when I’ve needed a small number of something to finish a set. This includes Carmisse purposely lotting over me on Iga Seals: Feet from Pascerpot while I was 6/8. Honestly I found it funny that she beat my lot 6+ times. I don’t remember if she finished hers but I know I didn’t finish mine. I didn’t think it a major issue then but as mentioned by Izzy, apparently this is an issue now that people have been talking about for a while. 
I’m sorry for rehashing old conversations but it seems that if it isn’t fully discussed out I’m going to be lambasted for every FL I take.

I’d appreciate any feedback… preferably constructive.

[Ryudei]

I'm grumpy, but I'm tired of hearing about this conflict so my two cents are going to come in a bit curt:

I see no issue with lotting on multiple characters so long as they aren't going toward the creation of a duplicate item.  Like in your example of creating WHM AF two times (which you aren't doing), or in the instance where you got two Atheling Mantles, which is clearly in the wrong.  Like you say your lotting items for Greenwood's WHM BRD WAR; Tabby's THF RNG RDM DRK; Myric's NIN is no different than someone else who has all those jobs leveled on one character lotting.  I'm really tired of hearing otherwise.

I think the real issue is situations like your #1 above.  A lot of time and energy can go into generating pop sets and when someone hops onto the tail end of an expedition after all the KIs are collected they really shouldn't expect to lot.  If you can't set aside a chunk of time to contribute to an Abyssea run then you shouldn't lot on the contested items.

[Reinah]

Having 2 characters myself, I understand, but I also see the merit in the other side of the argument. Because seals have multi-job use, it's sorta uncool for those of us with multiple chars.

I don't really think there's an easy solution, unfortunately... Nor do I think there is a wrong or right.

[LoneKenT]

Long version:
1) At first there were 4 dudes, we keep killing Bennu for +2. Then 3 dudes got their +2 done, Carm 1 or 2 stone left to finish hers, and at this point Bobz joined. We then killed 2 more Bennu, Bobz won all the stones. At this point, Tabby joined, we then killed 1 Bennu, stones droped, Carm didn't win lot, she bailed.
When we start on Bennu we didn't plan to do it till everyone get their +2 items. All the stone went free lot between the 4 people, the PT could have disbanded at any time. So there's some sort of "ladder" u had to climb cause it's free for all. Once all the other got their +2 done, u know it's your right to win the next +2 that drops. In this case Carm should have been at the top of the "ladder" cause the 3 other dudes finish their +2. Then Bobz and Tabby joined, and Carm keep loosing the lot, this made her pissed.
Note that we we're fine with 4 people, we didn't need any help, but what am I suppose to say if someone ask "Can I come?"?.
When Bobz or Tabby joined, no one said something like "Please let Carm get the next 2 stones so she can finish".
So it was assumed it's free lot on drops, and they didn't know Carm only need 2 left.
I should have said something like "Please let Carm get the next 2 stones so she can finish", my bad there.
So, lack of communication here.

2) As U said, pls focus on 1 char, and lot on 2nd when other has got theirs (unless if they're both your pops and u'r locking them).

3) This might happened cause number 1 & number 2 came before number 3 (...duh, Lone?). What I mean is, event #1 and #2 happened before event #3. #1 make people think, Tabby lot stuffs. #2 make people think, Tabby lots on Myric and Greenwood. So when Itzpapalotl died and Myric (which is thought to be alternate char) lots stone while Carm's at 1 stone left, might made people think "Tabby lots everything and Myric is lotting over other people's main" and people rage.
Frankly I don't see the problem with Myric lotting in this case.
Note that If Tabby lot on Greenwood, he'll pass those items on Myric and vice versa.
Since he lot alternately sometimes, it seems both char are lotting on the same item twice. This is not the case, except on the atheling mantle case.
i.e. if 2 stone of ardor drops, and Myric lot first stone and pass on second, and Greenwood lot second stone and pass first stone, it'll seem that Myric and Greenwood are lotting twice.


Green, sometimes u afk a lot and without warning/reason during runs, this might make people piss when u lot stuffs, cause u'r not pulling your weight farming/killing stuffs.

tl;dr version:
Ryudei's post sums it up

[Areya]

Here's my take on those situations:

1) The Bennu incident.

I think it was mostly the fact that Carm had been there quite a while.  I want to add that ORIGINALLY on that run it was just Zumi and Lonekent.  I joined after a little while, they were fighting Hedjedjet and Bennu both.  I passed the items they wanted from Hedjedjet.  Carmisse joined after a while.  Then later on Green and even later Bobz.  Carm was already a bit irritated because I had won some Coins of Ardor over her (but note that they were completely free and I won the lots fair and square).  I think she was mostly angry because Bobz was winning lots over here despite being there maybe 1 hour out of 6~7.

2) Atheling Mantle

No offense, but why is this really an issue?  It's a 100% drop item from a NM that Lonekent has to kill like a billion times for dagger anyways.  By the time we're done everyone will have one.  Oh sure some people might be sore because they don't get one immediately but it's not like Myric's NIN and Tabby's THF aren't used much.  If say, someone with only 90WHM and 90SMN had lotted this for a lv 75 melee before someone else, sure...

3) Vision Stones

I'm just as guilty as anyone else here, because I lotted on all three vision stones.  Carmisse said she needed one more to finish.  She didn't say what it was, I thought she was talking about the Coin of Ardor (yes, the same item off of Bennu).  I didn't win any lots anyways, plus I lost connection, but still, it stands.  Note that it wasn't her pop set, so it would basically just be "us doing her a favor" which I am totally cool with, mind you.  Note that Green said that Vision Stones can be used for WHM head and THF head, both of which are jobs he plays.  Granted he doesn't play WHM as much but that isn't because he isn't focusing on it, it's because we drag him everywhere as THF for TH.  That'd be like penalizing me for lotting SMN stuff.

4) The Big Picture

Let's face facts.  People have multiple characters and multiple accounts and these issues will continue to creep up.  Sure we could put in an elaborate point/merit system to handle it but we're not an HNMLS.  If we started doing that I think I would have to quit, sorry.  We shouldn't need something like that honestly.  Use a little judgment, people.  If someone spent hours farming a pop, they have a right to lock an item, okay.  But at the same time they don't have the right to lock every item.  I admit sometimes I get a bit greedy (the night I got Goading Belt and Serpentes Cuffs comes to mind, BUT it was my pop on Lacovie and I won the cuffs over others) but a lot of times I'll pass +2 items, even ones I need, just so everyone gets a few shinies.

I lost my temper the other night and I apologize for things that were said.  I really don't think this is as big an issue as it appears.  It's not like we can't fight more Orthrus and Itzpapalotls for the items in question.

(Moved this topic again...)

[Areya]

2) As U said, pls focus on 1 char, and lot on 2nd when other has got theirs (unless if they're both your pops and u'r locking them).

This isn't a cell phone, abbreviate a little less.  Seriously.

Also, kind of silly to lock a 100% r/e drop item like this, isn't it?  Eventually these things are gonna be falling to the floor.

[Ryudei]

Haha, there's no need to rail him for the way he types.  So long as it gets the message across.

The cape is the best DD and WS piece available for all the jobs that can use it, hence the contention.  And while Ken does need plenty of Orthus, I don't think it's going to get the same kind of attention Apademak and Isgebind will in the near future.  (I do have 2 Orthus pops though if we want to do those sometime).

Anyway, Green's admitted to a couple slips in judgement.  I think we agree that so long as we all exercise a little discretion when lotting there shouldn't be any problems.  If people have issues with the amount of work someone's put into a run, they should address that.  Scapegoating something like multiple characters is just going to confuse the point.

[Areya]

Yeah I think it's an issue that will mostly resolve itself.  *has some faith in the goodwill of others*

[Carmi]

I'll just address a few issues:

- I didn't "purposely" lot over Green even though he was 6/8. As he conveniently left out, Marcus was there lotting as well, and beat us both on a few seals (but I think it was more like 1 seal lol). When we started it was just a few of us and both Marcus and I were 0/8 going in. Green came a bit later and I've already accumulated some. I admit I was lucky on some lotting, but Green did not make it clear that he was 6/8 until I was winning the last -freaking- seal. That is what I remember. We stayed 30-45 minutes more but alas, no more nin seals dropped after that. Then we called it. So yeah, bullshit on that "purposely" lotting because he was almost finished.

- Just use common sense when lotting. I'm not saying I would rather have the mantle fall to the floor than to see green/tabby lot, but come on, when you have people with 1 character lotting vs someone with 3... You can't argue it any other way besides "well it's just going to drop on the floor eventually." Well so is everything else right? What's the point of the game amirite? It's the principle. *shrug* I don't know how else to put it.

- I am not scapegoating Green by calling him out on bringing multiple "mains" and lotting. I have no issues with people dualboxing. I'm sure Green has "worked" for his stuff. I'm just calling it as I see it. Same thing I told Green when he and I talked. I know for a fact you guys know exactly what I'm talking about with these issues but apparently I'm painted as the bad guy. I'm cool with that, I'm not saint! I like to leech too! Hell yeah dnc90 here I come.

But I agree with Marcus and Ken, and I feel what Rey said was right. I have faith and I've moved on. But if other people bring crap on, don't blame it on me. Like last night when Green asked me if he could lot that bard instrument, come on that's just rubbing it in my face that I'm being a bitch. It's not like I don't have my points!

[Areya]

You mean the Ney?  AH crap that's not even that good?  lol

Heck I'll buy you a Ney if you really want one

Eh but seriously, it's just an issue that I hope will quiet down.  It needed to be said, but now that it's out there people can understand.

[greenwood]

I remember that you beat me on several lots (mostly I remember whining and joking about how the game makes me lot low with you in the party). I think we remember it differently but I'm not here to argue with anyone so I'll relent and we'll go with your version. (my memory is often faulty anyways). Either way, purposely or un-purposely it still happened which was primarily my point. (Also, I don't mind blaming Ryu instead) <-- joke.

Kidding aside I've never felt like I've been the scapegoat. There were errors on my part and errors get called out. I just wanted to get to the root of what I'm doing wrong or what isn't "Ok". I'm not sure how others like to deal with issues but I have known way too many people who hold shit in and then blow up on me for a minor mistake. I like to avoid that when possible. So I see no fault on calling me out on my shit that I dont have together.

Carm, I don't view you as the bad guy and if there was on I'm pretty sure it would be me considering it stems from my (in)actions. I'm also sorry for the Fey bard instrument quip. I think I had made the comment after Izzy had made a reference as to why I was lotting on an alt (or something of that sort). This doesn't mean I should have been cheeky with you. Sorry.

Green, sometimes u afk a lot and without warning/reason during runs, this might make people piss when u lot stuffs, cause u'r not pulling your weight farming/killing stuffs.

I am notoriously bad about that and I've been trying to improve on this. Falling asleep at keyboard, afking for food/wc, afking for woman who could care less about me playing silly vid game. I understand why you're annoyed with that. I remember a while back you mentioned that I dont focus enough when I play and I've been trying to improve on that. I have a long way to go but I'll try to step it up. I'll also try to be better about announcing my afks (when I'm not passed out). Excluding my narcolepsy episodes, I don't know of the frequency of afk's will reduce as I take care of many things at home while playing. I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm just putting it out there.

[Kyuuketsuki]

*force feeds everyone a cookie* <3

afk salad

[Ryudei]

Kyuuketsuki sighting!!  *shackles to POL*  praygamenao!!!

Did you know there's a KYULU in the linkshell now that dares to go by Kyu??

[Areya]

Newer people in the LS don't even know about the Cookie King!

[Kyuuketsuki]

SAD

*rattles shackles*

[Ricachet]

Here's two cents from the new guy who's mostly just stood back and watched things.  Take it for whatever it's worth.

From what I can see, the person or people who farm pop items get to reserve one of the items that drop, and the rest is free lot.  It seems to work out for the most part, but it can also be taken advantage of.

As far as Tabby/Myric/GW goes, the biggest issue I see is the constant afking.  Not only just the afking, but it seems he's back just in time to accept raises and lot on stuff.  Whether that's intended or not, I don't know, but it seems kinda fishy.  Assuming theres a legitimate reason for each case, you may need to rethink priorities.  If your gf/food/whatever is suddenly pulling you away from the comp repeatedly, maybe you should log out and take care of your irl stuff, then get back on so you can enjoy the game uninterrupted.  If you're afking on your own accord, that's really not right.  Help out as much as you can then afk afterwards.  Most fights don't take longer than a few minutes anyways.  The way it looks now, it looks like you're having everyone else do the work while you reap the rewards.

The other issue I see is with the dualboxing, and no real benefit from having the second character in the group.  I usually see at least one of them standing there, not doing anything or dead (possibly a result of the above mentioned issue).  One time I saw one of the characters running in circles while afk... that made me lol.  Now if the reason for two characters was to leech exp/cruor or to scoop loot that no one else wanted, then fine.  Using the cloak as an example (though not a good one given its drop rate, but the concept is the same), it gives you two chances to get an item where others just have one.

This whole thing boils down to showing a little courtesy so everyone can have fun and get epix... err... AF3... or whatever the hell people are after.

[Zerila]

I'm one of the ones that dual box, and I usually only actively play on one of my characters during fights... typically Noogies in Abyssea, to throw out extra healing, since a lot of NMs require a bit of concentration to fight (like, don't attack unless it's casting, etc). Since it's hard for me to pay attention both to healing and whatever I need to do while attacking, I'll usually just stand out of the way so I don't mess things up mid-fight.

I don't know how Ryu and Green manage to do it, they always seem to do a better job than I do with multiple characters, but I always get messed up if I try to actively concentrate on both characters at the same time, and usually end up doing something stupid, so I will focus on one or the others

However, I only lot on one character, and only on stuff I can actually use IF nobody else can use it first and nobody has it locked. So, I think it's fair

It's a bit different for me, though.. the ONLY thing Noogies is going to level to cap is WHM. I don't really see that changing. Of course, at one time I also didn't think I'd level her past 60...

Edit to say: What I meant by that was that you don't need a whole lot of super-nice gear just to throw out cures, especially in Abyssea where it's nearly impossible to run out of MP when you have 16 points of refresh on you, even without ballad or refresh on. Thus, Noogies doesn't really need anything, so I just lot on myself.

[Ryudei]

Haha, I don’t know what you’re talking about Zeri.  Dual boxing can be a nightmare, as soon as I allot more than 10% of my attention to Fzi I’m going to start sucking at w/e else I’m doing.  It’s fine if I’m just worrying about curing and hasting myself but once bitches start whining about paralyna or something I usually start face tanking on the mithra and miss procs and party chat etc.  Fzi will always be a supplement to my mains so I won’t lot on him or go out of my way to develop him (usually), I’ll rarely do the focus on healing thing like Noogies either since I play to play my mains.  Not to say that I won’t if the situation calls for it but it’s not something I set out to do.

PS: 799 posts x_x…

[greenwood]

As far as Tabby/Myric/GW goes, the biggest issue I see is the constant afking.  Not only just the afking, but it seems he's back just in time to accept raises and lot on stuff.  Whether that's intended or not, I don't know, but it seems kinda fishy.  Assuming theres a legitimate reason for each case, you may need to rethink priorities.  If your gf/food/whatever is suddenly pulling you away from the comp repeatedly, maybe you should log out and take care of your irl stuff, then get back on so you can enjoy the game uninterrupted.  If you're afking on your own accord, that's really not right.  Help out as much as you can then afk afterwards.  Most fights don't take longer than a few minutes anyways.  The way it looks now, it looks like you're having everyone else do the work while you reap the rewards.

Noted. I'll work on this. It totally sucks that this is the impression I've made so I'm going to fix that.

[Bobz]

A bit late to this party, but i'd like to point out i was there for only three bennu pops.  The first pop i passed because i just got there, the second fight was my pop. So i did lot. This is where i got 2 stones i think. Then, green showed up, and i forgot who's pop it was, i think we proced it from the nm, these drops i passes where carm won lots. 

The idea was well i'm not letting greenwood get them! muwhahaha.  i don't think i won those either.

sooooo, discretion. yes.